6: Composite Roundup, C is for Carbon

Hello, and good day to you from episode six of our podcast series Project Breakaway. A metaphorical and literal time in the day when we here at Predator Cycling take some time away from working in the back shop to come and share with our listeners what we're doing, how we're doing it, what it takes to do it, our ideas, our innovative success stories, and even our missteps and failures. If you find yourself with an interest in bicycles, composite manufacturing, out-of-the-box design, or even curiosities beyond, I encourage you to stick with us, settle in, and learn a little. I'm Courtney B., co-owner and project manager of Predator Cycling, and I'm here with my partner Arm Goganian, the other co-owner, CEO, lead designer and engineer, and Mandalorian expert of Predator Cycling. How's it going, Arm? Good. I I like the Mandalorian. I don't know if you're an expert, but you seem to be watching a lot of it. Not really. I got I got an episode in yesterday. Yeah. I I I think Baby Yoda is cute, but I really have no interest in watching it. It's okay. You don't have the best of taste in shows. Um yeah, I do, but uh let's move on. Um so, Arm For today's topic. Yeah, the podcast podcast is a little later this week. Um we've just been super busy working on some marketing campaigns that we're going to unveil here at the end of the month. So, we thought we'd get back to it today. Hey. Yeah, so a little delayed. Yes, delayed, but we're here. So, in relation to last week's topic of our new road frame, the RF20, we got a lot of emails and messages asking about more technical detail details that aren't yeah, available on the website. So, people were asking uh what kind of carbon we use on the frame, um what was the weave of the carbon and epoxy systems used, how did we do our layups, um how strong is the frame, and where are the strength points. So, I think on this episode, I really want to discuss carbon fiber. Yep. So, let's start from the beginning. What is carbon fiber? So, carbon fiber is um it's two separate components that are brought together to make a laminate. So, in carbon fiber for bicycles and what we're talking about, we're talking about a matrix and a reinforcement fabric. Um so, in most cases, the matrix we're talking about is a epoxy base system or a sometimes a pre-set. Um it's supposed to be vinyl ester based epoxies, uh vinyl ester based products. It's not an epoxy. Um and then on the fabric reinforcement side, you're talking about in most cases carbon fiber, but you can also be including um things like um uh Kevlar. You could be looking at fiberglass, E-glass, um and even um some there's other support materials that you can be using in that. So, when those materials are put together, that gives you a composite product or it's called in the industry a laminate. And it's essentially a fat like fabric. I don't think a lot of people realize it's like a draping of fabric. Mhm. That's exactly what it is. It's like a cotton shirt that you're wearing. Obviously, the stitch pattern is a little different and the material is different, but it's essentially the same thing. And I don't I guess I I if you think of a fabric, it's just how hard it is to lay and create angles Mhm. Because it's I don't I'm trying to think of the word. I can't it's not in my head right now, but it to to make an angle. You know when you're folding something, you have to create like a crease, you create a little triangle and stuff. It's very hard to lay up It can get very especially in the shape of a bicycle. Yeah. Um especially that kind of goes back to the idea of what makes RF20s so difficult is that there's it's a very organic shape. So, it makes it very difficult to lay up. Um and that was kind of I mean, it's one of the reasons it's taken us so long to develop the frame because we didn't really want to hold anything back. But um so that that goes into the the idea of how we lay up the part and the types of carbon fiber we use for the part. Um Well, quickly, let's track back a little. When did carbon fiber enter the cycling industry? Um I mean, I It's been a while. I think you can date it into the into the late 80s. I mean, the mid-90s is when it was like a thing. Like it was big. I mean, you started getting like um I mean, for me, like carbon fiber was a was the the mecca of it was like, you know, 96 games was like, you know, GT superbikes, things like that was was the the um the highlight of it. Um Because you started making aluminum and then we segued into carbon fiber. Yeah, we did. So, we started in 2000 with aluminum. And at the time, I mean, you couldn't get getting into composites was very difficult. Expensive. It's very expensive, very difficult uh because I mean, one getting access to materials hard, uh CNC machines in order to produce molds is really difficult. I mean, construction is really hard. It It's it's not an it's not a cheap thing to get into. Um it's it's scaled down a lot now. Um and the technology that's accessible to you now is I mean, w- the stuff that we're using now, we didn't have 10 years ago. Um so, it wasn't really it was very difficult to do then. Right. So, in in a general area, I guess, what are the benefits of using carbon fiber and what do you feel are the downfalls of using carbon fiber in in the industry? So, I mean, the benefits of carbon is you have a very lightweight and strong material. It's it's very light, it's very strong. Um it's also very customizable. You can tailor the characteristics of the material really well. Um because I mean, like Courtney was saying, it's a fabric. So, anywhere the grain or like the direction of the fiber goes is your strength. So, anywhere that it's it's perpendicular to the direction of the fiber is its weak point. So, it's uh it's not an it's a non-isotropic isotropic material. So, meaning that it doesn't have equal strengths in all, you know, angles. So, X, Y, and Z. It's not it's not equal. Um like aluminum or steel would be. So, given that, that's a really big plus in car in in bicycles because we can tailor the the riding characteristics, the stiffness, exactly where we need it, and then no extra material where we don't need it. Now, where that becomes a weakness is if you just look at some basic simulations and you can figure out your loads and forces, you think it's really simple where you need strength and where you don't, but you don't realize that everything is connected to each other and you have these massive assemblies that are all moving, that all have loads and forces acting on it. Mhm. And that becomes much more complicated to figure that out. Um so, like one of the problems is if you don't do it properly, you're more prone to like cracking. Um your frame is prone to cracking because you're you're pushing the envelope of weight. And if you're running um primarily unidirectional carbon, which is what a lot of people in the industry use, um there's nothing holding it together in the axis where the material isn't. So, if you have an impact, it it's more prone to crack. I mean, it's definitely one of the downers downsides of it um in the super lightweight form. Mhm. And then I mean, benefits like I said was tailoring it. Um another downfall of it is is that to do it properly, it's expensive and complicated. So, when you get lesser quality composite frames, you you don't always reap the benefits of the composite. Right. So, And just even on the consumer side as a as someone who owns a carbon fiber bike, just the housekeeping of it keeping a carbon fiber bike. Yeah. Compare I mean, you drop it, it it's the breaking points are much Yeah. It's it's easier. We as we do carbon repair sometimes. Yeah. So, yeah, for sure. I I You know, someone Joe Schmo's like, "Hey, I accidentally ran my vacuum into it and now I have a crack." Right. And that that kind comes back to the point of like the way you do your layup and the way the materials are set up on the bike are more, you know, pro Now, a carbon frame will take an impact in general much better than an aluminum frame or even a steel frame because it will disperse the load very easily because it's a material. Right. Because it's a fabric and that fabric is uh woven together or connected together so it disperses that load very efficiently. Now, if the fibers are only going in one direction and there's no reinforcement in the other direction, that energy that transfers through it is actually what causes the crack. Right. Um so, and the other thing about carbon is that most people don't realize it does not take abrasion well. Right. That's what you've always told me when before I started working here is it took impact well, but not abrasion. And I always thought, "Well, you're still a goner because even if you crash and you have impact, your bike's going to skid across the street." It can. Um sometimes you hit it. I mean, like you were the one that sk- sk- skids across the street. So, Um well, um the bike doesn't, but it doesn't it does not take impact. Like we've had some other applications outside of the bike industry and it's like people want to do things like skid guard pieces and out of carbon. It's like, dude, it's just such a sacrificial piece. It's not going to take it well. Um not as well as like, you know, like a steel or aluminum or, you know, stainless steel piece would take. But anyways, it's uh yeah, it does not take abrasion well. Okay. So, then let's talk about quickly um a little bit of the different types of carbon that Yeah. are used. Um because it's a fabric and it can come dry or you can purchase it already in pre-impregnated with uh epoxy or wet lays. So, um explain those differences and the uses for each. Yeah, so you have there's there's Courtney's right. There's two different ways you typically get your fabric. You either get it dry or you get it pre-impregnated. Um so, if you get the material dry, what you're doing is you're going to be mixing your epoxy system on its own or your matrix, whatever you're using. Um you're going to use your matrix separately, mix it, and then apply the fabric dry onto a part and then onto your mold and then saturate it with that epoxy. Um there's a couple ways you can do it. You can do what's called a wet lay, which you basically saturate the fabric and then lay it onto the mold. Um and that's really common to be done um especially in the automotive like when you're doing like spoilers and parts like that. Even in bikes, a lot of people still do that. Um you can also do what's called infusion molding where you basically vacuum everything dry and then under vacuum introduce epoxy. Mhm. That's a system that we used to use quite a bit for a lot of our um early majors and and some of our aero bar systems and even some of our bikes that we used to do. We used to do some uh infusion molding on some of our parts. And what did you feel were the benefits of that because of the angles of like the handlebars? The angles So, that the vacuum got it in all the little creases that the epoxy For sure. For sure. But also, that there's inherent I mean, you're going to start getting into like really nitty-gritties. But what in infusion, the nice thing is is that you don't introduce air to the system. So, the system is completely vacuumed and then you introduce the epoxy. So, you get much less epoxy or matrix inside your laminate. So, you get a much stronger laminate. Um it's also easier if you're going to be mixing different types of materials like different types of reinforcements. Um infusion molding is a little bit easier to do. Um you can also batch things in in in infusion molding. So, you could run like maybe one or two parts simultaneously. Mhm. Um and you have more time for the layup. So, there's there's lots of benefits and pros to either, but it's also more technical and more difficult to do. So, you need much higher technical ability to do it. Mhm. And if you get a little leak, it really sucks. I yeah. Because it happens. Yes. Uh finding the leak is a fun game that we like to play here sometimes. Yeah. That especially in the big parts. We've done some really big parts and oh my god. Yeah. And you can't in infusion molding, you cannot have a leak. Right. It has to be fully vacuum sealed and you have to monitor and track that. So, you have to data log all that. Right. To make sure you have a good part. So, let's talk about pre-impregnated uh carbon with epoxy already introduced. This is this is the system what most people are using in production. Um and so, that is dry fabric that is basically pressed in epoxy and then flash frozen. So, you basically stop the reaction of the epoxy system and um that way you don't have to worry about laying it and you have the perfect amount of epoxy and fiber ratio, which is really important. Um and then the the benefits is so, you can also so, there's like the the viscosity of the well, obviously, matrices are primarily liquid that turn into a solid. And so, the viscosity changes based on the temperature. So, um when you ramp so, pre-pregs are cured with heat. Mhm. So, you put them in at room temperature and then you ramp them up to anywhere from 250 to 350 degrees. And then you set them for anywhere from 30 minutes to, you know, 4 hours at that temperature. And then the part cured and then you cool it down and you have a finished part. Um the cool thing with pre-preg systems are is if you're really dial in your materials, you can increase your pressure of your part um with the viscos in in relationship to the the curing the TG of the of the matrix and the viscosity of the matrix so that you can get the perfect laminate compaction that you can get. So, you can actually just pressurize the system and then have the epoxy or whatever the matrix is bleed into the part perfectly, get that surface finish just right, get the right amount of bleed out, and just get a really nice part. Um and the thing with pre-preg systems like that is you can just do it the same every single time. Yeah. And it's kind of ease of use. It seems like it's an easier material to work with and drape for me at least. when I'm laying up. Yeah, well, also the thing is is because there's that epoxy system that's already or that matrix that's already in the material, it kind of sticks together. So, it doesn't just like fall apart like dry material does. So, it's it's really nice. I mean, there's some limitations because you start getting into problems of like what material you can get and mixing materials and and epoxies matrix systems that are compatible with each other and it's just there's a whole another layer of complexity to it. Um it's all messy. It is. So, let's discuss how we use carbon specifically in our RF20. Yep. What do we use on this frame? So, we use so, well, there there's there's there's a couple different types of carbon fiber in the in the fabric orientation realm. Mhm. So, there's what we call unidirectional carbon fiber, which means that all the fibers are going in one direction. So, kind of like, you know, like uh um like your hair coming, you know, draping off of your head. It's just it's all going in one direction or usually it's going one direction. You've obviously haven't seen my hair this morning, but Um but yeah, the idea is it's all going in one direction. It flows. Mhm. Um then you have um a woven materials, which is typically in either plain weave or twill, which is basically just, you know, like Cross stitch. Yeah, like a cross stitch type thing. It looks like a uh knitted, you know, blanket. Mhm. That style. Um and then you have um well, there's some variations of that. And then you have um um chop that's micro chops and long chops, which is basically short pieces of carbon fiber that are um cut together and kind of like a a mesh. Mhm. And then you have something that's called a bi-directional braided sleeve, uh which is essentially a Chinese finger trap. Right. That's essentially what it looks like. I think most people know what that is. Yeah, so that's that's basically how that works. Uh and that's done on a loom and they spin it. Um anyways, it's very interesting. So, so we use a combination of materials here. So, um we use bi-directional braided sleeves a lot. Um and there's a lot of advantages to that. Um we also use a unidirectional and when we talk about unidirectional, we're usually talking about a spread toe um standard or high modulus material. Sometimes ultra high modulus depending on the layup for a customer. Mhm. Um and ultra high modulus you're talking about because for people who want weight savings? Weight savings and stiffness. So, the high modulus um basically you're talking about the tensile strength of the material. Mhm. So, the higher the modulus, the the higher the tensile strength. Now, You're talking about your hardcore racers who put a lot of uh strength when they're riding. Yeah, for sure. That and and also people that want like like you said, very stiff, very snappy, um and very lightweight. The problem is is as you get into those higher and higher modulus, um you get more uh a more brittle frame. The frame becomes much more brittle. So, it doesn't absorb vibration as well. It transfers it more. It's more like it's closer to glass. Mhm. So, um and I say glass, I mean like a glass panel, not like fiberglass. Um but um but yeah, so we use unidirectional and in is our reinforcement for our stiffener. Um and then we use a um a 20 mm and like 30-40 mm short strand materials for um building up bulk in in areas where we're trying to get a more isotropic property out of the material. So, we're looking at like load cases like bearing joints, drop-out joints, um um So, for the joints, you use more the short strands? Yeah, joints where we have things like Dropouts. Axles, dropouts, brake mounts. Mounting sounds. Anything. Anything that's mounting where you have like a screw or some sort of loading capacity, you want short fiber strands because you want to be able to take that material that load and dissipate it quickly in all directions. And then you want to have the correct substrate behind it or with it that's going to carry that load where it needs to go. Mhm. Now, the advantages of um uh bi-directional sleeves is um if you think about it, it's kind of like a corkscrew going around a part. So, when you have a load that's transferred from one side to the other side, it travels in a very long distance to get to the other side. Mhm. Meaning that that has more time to absorb vibration and impacts. So, it does really well for like having that really nice smooth ride. Um and also it does it does really well for that. It also does really well on impacts. Um and also any sort of like I say impact like I mean, rocks hitting it. hitting a curb. Hitting yeah, hitting a curb, dropping your frame, it it carries that load much, much better. Right. It also has an incredible amount of torsional strength. Mhm. So, there there's some pros and con there's some pros there. The con, you get a little bit of added weight. You are taking that material out and spiraling it. So, you have more material. Right. And to take the same distance, it requires more material to do it. And we're not Predator, I don't feel like Predator Cycling is like we're making the lightest bike possible. We're trying to make a efficient and strong bike Yeah. That is light, but also It's a is We talked about it on the last podcast. It's the balancing act of trying to thread that needle to get that right balance. Um something we talked about in the past is this concept of total efficiency. Um there's a point where you get too light and you start saving weight everywhere and it doesn't do you any benefit. Like you you actually are hurting yourself. It's like you got so light that okay, now you're sacrificing ride quality, which means that you're not you're not carrying your speed over bumps and bad sections of the road as well to go as fast or it doesn't corner as well or it doesn't and it's well as our chattering. So, I mean there's there's limits to everything. So, balancing that and I think the braided system on our bike is um it gives it a lot of um there's a lot of pluses to it. At the same time, we use unidirectional and to reinforce and stiffen up the bike where we need it. Right. Um But the um braided uh sleeves actually just for a finished look on as the last cosmetic layer. I feel like makes it look Oh, it looks it looks really good. Yeah. Especially with our molding system and the pressure we're getting. It's just Yeah. You get a really nice finish. It's pretty. It is. It is pretty. If you choose not to paint your bike. Yeah. You choose not to paint it. It's it's definitely pretty nice. Underneath that paint, it's still pretty on the inside. Uh yeah, for sure. Uh it also gives you a really nice um uniform compaction around the part. So, you get a really good uniform wall thickness where where you need it. Um and that's really nice where with unidirectional it's very difficult cuz you're dealing with overlaps. Um so with with braided systems it's better. Now, the the if you were listening to our other podcasts where we were talking about the fact that the front triangle is a monocot front triangle and it's built off of a mandrel and we're using bi-directional braided sleeves for those of you that are composite people. That is I think it's I'm pretty proud of that fact. Um it makes it very complicated to make the frame. Um and one of the reasons why it took us so long to figure everything out. Um it's a cool construction methodology on how to put it together. Right. So, let's talk about um epoxy systems. Yes. Um we use a medium to high pre-preg uh Yeah. flow system. I don't know if that's correct. Yeah, so we no yeah we do. We so we use a we use a um a slightly higher concentra- it's it's got a little higher epoxy content than um um than fiber content than most pre-pregs. It's a little heavy on the epoxy side. Epoxy to fiber. And what fiber ratio does that for flow management? There's there's a couple reasons. One reason one of the reasons we're not going to go into cuz it's a tra- it's it's kind of proprietary to us. But um one of the big reasons is because we're actually so there's different types of molds um that are out there and most molds are are essentially a vented mold, which means that you are pressurizing the part from the inside and the outside of the part is actually exposed to essentially ambient pressure. So, meaning that you're pressing it on one side and there's a place for the air to escape. Mhm. Um and then the air escapes and the epoxy escapes with that air and you press out the excess epoxy. Mhm. Now, we've kind of taken it a little bit farther. So, what we do is we have a a I would call it a semi-sealed mold. So, it at ambient temperature and the mold is at ambient temperature and up to a certain degree, the mold is is vented. So, the air is allowed to escape as the pressure builds. Mhm. And then once we get to a certain point, it stops and then we fully pressurize the system. And we control that on on a ramp schedule. We have a whole schedule that we figured out and thank you to ANSYS Mechanical for helping us simulate all of that and figure it all out. Um and we basically figure out that that schedule and then we close off the mold at the right time so that we can get all the air out and still have a little epoxy and then have a bleed zone for the epoxy and then we get a really really good compacted finish. Um Great. And you mentioned ANSYS um Yes. Quickly, I don't know if we've mentioned them before. I think we have. But what ANSYS is a company that That ANSYS is the the the end all of simulation for most parts. The holy grail of simulation. The holy grail of simulation. There you go. Okay. And yeah, so we use ANSYS Mechanical in our simulation. So, you were talking about our pressure heat press methodology. Yeah. Other companies, not just bicycle, but in in industry of carbon fiber, they use like closed closed clamshell mold techniques. Explain how that's different and how we ramp our thermal properties and how ANSYS assist in that early on in simulation. Oh, for sure. So, um we use essentially a clamshell mold. We use a modified clamshell. But a clamshell basically means that you have both sides you can have multiple sides parts of a mold. But when the mold is closed, the outside surface of the part is all solid and rigid aluminum or steel whatever you're doing. So, you get that part finish. Um it's I think 99% of the bike industry is all clamshell molds. Um that's what pretty much everyone does. Um and and then the question was towards oh and ANSYS in-house simulation. Okay. Well, cuz we use more of a pressure heat press semi-clamshell hybrid. There's a couple of okay so there's a couple different ways we do that clamshell mold are processed. You can either process them in a in a press platen press where you have two big metal plates that push against it and heat up the mold. Um or you can throw it into an oven. A lot of people do batch ovens. So, you'll throw four or five molds into an oven and then heat it up Mhm. Um and process it that way. You can also if you're doing a modified clamshell or an open mold, you can actually run it vacuum and throw it into an autoclave. Um now, because coming back to our concept that we actually vent and then close our mold, um we do all of that through well, we have a complicated control system that controls the mold. But we also have a main contributing factor that is heat. It's heat-driven. So, for us we have to simulate it. So, we have multiple types of materials inside of our mold and our mandrel systems that are made of different types of materials that all expand at different rates. So, we have to be basically figure out how that expansion works, how the flow of the epoxy works, and then compact that into a part and then simulate it so we can actually figure out how fast we need to ramp it, at what rate we need to ramp it at, how long we need to hold it at what temperature for, how much pressure that the mold has the mold has to be under in our press, Mhm. um and then when we need to vent and close and what we need to do with vacuum and air pressures. And the rate of the cool down. I'm just reminded of our previous episode of our failure of our son's push bike. Yes. Because I don't know if you sim- simulated it. No. Or okay. Well, that explains why it completely imploded on itself. I I didn't simulate the molding process. Okay. Because yeah. So, this is important. That's a a prime example of why it's important in our actual products and not our son's push bike. Yeah, right. I was I simulated the the the push bike is also set up for a course that I talk about we talk about simulation and I in the course I don't cover simulation for molding Mhm. Because it's not part of the course. It was getting too in-depth. So, yeah, I prod- I simulated for the product itself and not the simulation of how the product is molded. Um So, there's a bunch of science and tech behind all of this. Most that I I have a very very um uh not a very good grasp of. Oh. But yeah, but you process it all. I mean, you're running you're the one that actually I just hope when people buy our RF20 or any of our products, they just know how much time was spent prior to uh even um the the product, but even like um The platform it's built on. The platform it's built on. There's a process behind it that it to me is so comp- it's complicated. Well, it's not it's not simple. It's I I may have over-complicated it to a certain degree. There's just I mean, yes, we make bikes, but we are a I feel we are a tech company. Yeah. Well, and that's why I think in the previous episode we were talking about how we have different manufacturing platforms. And that's really what this is built on and that's really what the RF20 is. It it it is a really cool bike in my opinion. Um But it's also a showpiece of technology used behind it. For sure. Simulation. Simulation. I mean, it's it and that's the thing is like I you know, I've done a couple talks recently in the last couple months about simulation and you know, and hardware accelerations and GPU systems and stuff and it just I can't emphasize a enough. I mean, we are so fortunate that we are able to have an amazing software package and hardware package at our disposal. I mean, that's amazing. But on top of that, we're able to introduce that so early on into the workflow. And that's what makes it a game-changer. Like And I think that makes ANSYS stand out a little bit from other companies is Yeah. It's cuz we have an arm. That that is a plus and a minus. It is plus and a minus because I mean, obviously you are you know, encyclopedia of cycling knowledge. But you take you have a grasp on the technology side. Yeah. And you have the seamless workflow that you use all up there in that noggin of yours. Um yeah, I like it. I I really I to me it's a massive puzzle and I really enjoy it and I I can't emphasize enough how lucky we are that we have I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've called support for s- like different software packages. Oh my gosh. I just want to just apologize to the support and customer service of Basically any other company that we team with because Um takes advantage if you offer any sort of help or assistance or service, he's going to call you. And you better block off a good two to three hours. Yeah. Yeah. I have a lot of questions. You do. You have a lot of questions. No, and that's the thing but that's the thing like with some of these companies that we work with. Um I mean, the amount of support that you get um is so meaningful because you can actually leverage the tech. So, I mean, that's what we've been able to do with ANSYS. I mean, I I I emphasize ANSYS a lot because it's um it's the simulation side of it has been a massive game-changer for us. And without that and our hardware acceleration, Mhm. um the RF20 I don't think would have come to fruition. Oh. Or or at least to the magnitude to to the ability that we're able to. Right. Um it's it's a game-changer. Right. Um is there anything that you want to add about uh the amazing topic of carbon fiber? There's a lot I want to add. I don't think we have time. No, we don't. So, And I don't want to bore everybody. We're going to get going. But um just recent news um for our customers or listeners, look for our website to have a lot of updates coming here in the next couple weeks. Mhm. Um we have a big refresh to the RF20 page as we start adding the actual geometry charts and more technical information. Yeah, we're going to give quite a bit and um I think we're also going to be adding in the next couple weeks we're going to be adding some um Um for people that have more questions about the RF20 specific, we're going to have a a booking feature on there. So, you can book some time to um talk to us. Talk to you. Talk to me. No one wants to talk to me at that. No, they might. You might want to ask some questions what it does. For sure. It's been in a uh a pre-order state for quite a while and we're finally we're finally launching it and going to production here soon. So, we have a lot more information to share. Yeah. So, Um what to look forward to on future podcasts. I think we're going to touch on another big product update that we plan on working on here in quarter three and four of this year. Um and getting relaunched and that is the major handlebars. I feel like that is what people really want from us. Yeah. And we definitely have put it on a huge pause and we're going to get back to it now that we have um worked on the system that we worked on. Our RF20 worked really worked out a lot of kinks in the process that is going to apply directly to the new major production. And it's it's I'd like to emphasize it's the major family of bars. It's the major family of bars. It's not just the Pilot. It's we're going to Oh, yeah. We're we're bringing the whole family of Pilots back. I mean, the Major is back. Yeah. So, um I we've heard a lot of the people's requests. The people want it. The people want it. We get emails weekly, daily. Um I apologize for not doing it earlier. Um but yeah, the RF20 the the platform the RF20 is built on is is carrying over to pretty much everything we have and the Major is definitely one of them. Great. Okay. Well, let's wrap it up. We thank you for choosing to take some time with us and look forward to future breakaways. I'll try my hardest to put any mentions on our new section on predatorcycling.com. Also, look for us on Instagram and LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, and in-person here in Tennessee. Um let's get back to work. So, we ask our listeners to please share, like, and subscribe. We're available on all major streaming platforms. Thanks for listening. Have a good one and find some time to break away.