Hello and good day to you from episode 38 of our podcast series Project Breakaway. A metaphorical and literal time in the day when we here at Predator cycling take some time away from working in the back shop. Come and share with our listeners what we're doing, how we're doing it, what it takes to do it, our ideas, our innovative success stories and even our missteps and failures. If you find yourself with an interest in bicycles, composite manufacturing, out of the box design or even curiosities beyond. I encourage you to stick with us, settle in and learn a little. I'm Courtney B, co-owner and project manager of Predator cycling. I'm here with my partner Arm Goan, the other co-owner, CEO, lead designer and engineer and angry fusion user. How's it going, Arm? Uh, it's going pretty, it's going all right. Uh, we had a unexpected uh break this afternoon. So yeah, so we're doing a podcast. Because you can't do anything else. I I I can't I can't log in the fusion right now. Yeah, I out of this has a big uh outage across the board, so. Yeah, like user authentication error or something. So they're just giving everybody the day off. Everyone other people. Not us. Yeah, I guess. So we decided to do a podcast. Yeah, trying to stay productive. Mhm. So, uh, yeah, we are here. Okay. So on the last episode, we kind of reacquainted ourselves to this podcast. After a long pause. Yes. And we discussed the continuing development of the Aero bar extensions. And they're officially available on the website now. If you go to Predatorcycling.com, the products tab. And then you'll see Aero bar extensions. Um, and we are in the midst of adding some more visual aspects to the listing. Um, you were you were working on some renders for um angle of optimal viewing angles. And you were making like a little dude. Like a. Yeah, I'm just trying to make it a little more visual so that you can kind of understand the product a little bit better. Mhm, I think we're going to try to do like a comparison type of visual. Photo to, you know. Yeah, show you like the different like one of the, you know, benefits of custom bars and matching the rider profile and stuff like that. Um. So yeah, we're just trying to trying to put it all together. So, and we also have um the set that we talked about last time still here. For post sanding. And then when we make that all pretty, we'll get some um physical photos. As well as renders. Yeah, it's uh our first uh true production ones that are going out the door that are not for testing or anything. Um. So yeah, it's exciting. So. We've been yeah, working really hard on it and just finalizing the whole system. So. Okay. Um. Yeah. So. you are listening. You know that I am not a competitive cyclist. I'm barely a leisurely one. until the kids can get along in the burly again. Um, but internally, I did ask you when I was creating the listing for this product, the Aero bar extensions. Um, I literally said, so what makes our bars different? Uh, yeah, that was the question. You asked. So we had a discussion and so I thought I would just have a discussion here too. Yeah, for sure. So, you explained that the product, um, that people have historically written were like off the shelf stock bars. The Aero bar extension. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's uh, custom aero bars have not really been a thing that has gone mainstream, um, until recently in the last couple years. It's become more mainstream now than it was, um, when we first started like eight years ago. So, Because aero bars are for a triath triathletes. They're for a couple different events. Time trials. Time trials use them. Um, uh, technically anything is, yes, technically a time trial, which is can be multiple disciplines. Um, but and and triathlons are the most commonly used spaces for aero bars. Because it's basically when you have to lay down on a bike. Yeah, when you want to get a really close, you know, a tucked up aero position. Um, we see it used on in like road time trials, um, on track events like the 4K and and the and the and the 1K. Even sometimes in the 500, um, you see aero bars used. Um, so they're using a lot of different types of disciplines that kind of have different requirements. Um, and then obviously on triathlons and even seeing them now like on, you know, gravel races and stuff. People are using aero bars. Are there rules? In gravel race? Um, there I there is. You can do whatever you want. For the most part, I think they've just now started doing some regulations and stuff. But aren't aero bar extensions for like long riding? Like, They are for time trials where you are by yourself. Racing against the clock. But like gravel racing is bumpy, so why would you want to be in that position? So it's not as like aggressive aero position, but a more relaxed like upright aero position. So that you can like rest your arms and you're not. beating yourself up as bad. But in gravel racing, though, kind of like mountain bike racing, though, aren't you like trying to like be gritty? And why would you want like a smoother? Well, you're using it so that you can actually just basically rest your upper body. Because you're in gravel racing, mountain bike racing, I mean, you really beat your upper body up. Because it's, I mean, you're you're you're having to maneuver the bike and impacts and and. Um, and just the terrain, it just beats you up more. So there's I think the idea is more to get you give you rest and give you recover and also you get a more aero position. So you can be far more efficient in like, you know, hard pack dirt sections and stuff like that. So. Okay, so they're usually. straight. So what, 20, 30 years ago? They're just kind of straight. Uh, yeah, I mean, I was Greg Lemond. was like one of the first. what have custom? No, to use them in like the Tour de France and stuff competitively. Which was the Scott Aero bars. Oh, before that they just use regular old handlebars for a time trial? The base, you know, the base bars, it's kind of like a cow horn. They call it a cow horns. That's just that base where the levers go on an arrow bar. Um, that's what they used to use. So they just had a drop position and they would just do it like a, you know, shoulder width. Drop their hands down real low. Um, and that was it. That was their position. So when that Greg Lemon used them, was there any rules? They were just like, There were no rules. What is this guy doing? There was no rules about that. And he did it and he crushed it and he did really, really well with it. And it helped him win the tour. Um. So, uh, yeah, I mean, he was one of one of the first. That used it in competitive. I don't know if he was the actual first one to use it, but he was one of the very first to use it. I don't know my history there super well. So. Um, but I mean, and then ever since then, it's we've kind of up until about 10 years ago. We kind of just did the same, I mean, the bars changed a little bit. But not drastically. We had these round basically 22 mm, 22.2 mm diameter bars. That, you know, kind of came out and was kind of like a hook at the end. So it's like a ski hook type holding position. So your hands were out. Um, and you could kind of rotate them. And sometimes you could angle them. And that was about it. Like. You had some adjustment. But, um. Um, when you see those compared to the bars of today, I mean, like especially like our custom arrow bar extensions. Um, there was a lot of material that just hanging out in the wind. Um. And, you know, if you're, uh, if the wind can't see it. Then, you know, It's not there. I mean, I know nothing about, um, science. But, uh, wouldn't the straight or the bar mean the easier the wind would go over it? Then a bumpy contoured bar? Uh. Yes. Um, so you you want to look at. I mean, the basic thing that you're trying to decrease. When you're talking about aerodynamics. There's there's a lot of different things that are going on. But one of the main focuses is. Um, to allow the the wind to only see one object. Um, and to decrease the surface area of that object as much as possible. So, for instance, what I mean by that is like if you were like in a Superman position. For instance. Like, you know, Superman's flying, you're punching the air in front of you. Your two hands shoulder with across like directly in front of you. Is much slower than if you were like in a diving position. Where, you know, you're like a a diver is trying to swim and like dive into the water. Because their hands are together, um, the wind sees that as one object. That's disturbing the wind. Um, and you're more of a pointed type shape. Which means it's going to allow the air to break over it more gradually. Um. So you want to introduce things to the wind if you can as a single object. So together. And you want to introduce it as little surface area as you possibly can. Like that's kind of the rules of thumb. Um. So contoured bars are better than straight bars. Yes, so. if you just had a straight pipe bar, like a straight old school straight bar that was coming out of the extension, is that faster than an arrow extension? Yeah, if no one's holding it, it is faster. It's going to create less drag. Unless you just have like an arm that's straight. Well, I guess arms are. Well, I mean, you can't really. So the contours are because of the rest, right? The contour, so on our arrow bar extensions, there's a lot of things going on. It's not just a simple setup. But basically what we try to do is we try and create, um, figure out the most optimal position for the person itself. So let's say, you know, for instance, Corey has a very interesting position because he has a kind of a traditional praying mantis. But he also puts his hands together. Um, he's also got quite a bit of dexterity in his wrists. Um, and um, he kind of closes up his his elbows really well and he he rolls in his shoulders well. So his position is very unique. Um, and we can allow him to get into that unique position that's really arrow. And then we can kind of bring the bars to him and and shape them around his um, position. So, what we're trying to do is show the wind that that that whole front area where his hands are and the bars are is actually just one piece. It's it's one object. And we're trying to um, guide the wind. Not into his chest cavity. And try and guide the wind around his arms to come down, you know, his side, his shoulders and his um, you know, his um, the side of his back. And and bring the air that way around. So he can not try and get it inside his chest. Because if it went to his chest. It it causes turbulence. It kind of sees it as two separate things. We're trying to just get the air to go around him. Um, so that we get a nice flow. Okay. So contour is better than straight. Um, let's talk about arm cups. Which is where your elbows sit. Yes. What's important about those? Uh, so we took that, well, I guess for me when I was racing, that just drove me nuts, those things, the the the pads. Um, but there's a couple things the pads are doing. One, your elbow is pushed against it, which is a large portion of the weight of your body is getting pushed into those pads. Um, the other thing that's happening in those pads is that. Um, you want to get your elbows as close together as you can. Um, and a lot of times those pads don't have a lot of side support. Um, and so you kind of just start rolling your elbows out of the pads, like they kind of just start getting wider and wider and wider. So you'll notice on our pads, they're very tall. Um, so you kind of have to like slip your arms into the pads. Mhm. And the reason is that is just literally to hold your upper body in place. And it kind of helps lock your position in really well. Um, that's the first thing. Um, also it's they're the the the cups themselves are completely made out of carbon fiber. Um, and actually the layup is actually particular in the way your elbows and stuff press against it, we've kind of laid that up in a way so that we can make that rigid and still try and try and decrease some vibration if we can. Um, the pads themselves are super interesting because those pads. um that we make are actually a completely molded pad. Um and it has a different um amount of um rebound and and and cushion, quote unquote. Um in the back of the pad, it's denser. Um towards the front of the pad, it's less dense. Um meaning when you put your elbows in it, you typically put more weight, more pressure on the back of the pad than you do on the front of the pad. because it's your elbow's kind of digging into it. So that area is denser so that it doesn't bottom out. and it has a little bit it has more um rebound. So that it absorbs the impacts of the road. absorbs it and and comes back to its original position quicker. Um. What about wind over the arm pads? Because ours are like squarish. And then I saw other arm pads on other bars online and they were more oval and smaller. And they took up a lot less. Yeah, so like. Yeah, so that's a it's that's a great point. So we we opted. And well, the other thing on our arm pads is another little difference. is that there's actually venting throughout the pad. Um because it gets really hot and sweaty. So one of the things we tried to do is is to create as much ventilation as we possibly could. through the pod to try and not make that as hot. Um and also the our pads are also washable. So you can actually take the pads off, they're 100% waterproof. Um they'll go up to about 750 degrees Fahrenheit. So that means you can put them in a dishwasher and clean them. Um so they're, you know, it's nice to clean. It's easy to work with. Um. On the pads themselves, so one of the things that we do about our arrow pads, um cups and pad system is that they are in our custom arrow bar extensions. They're actually screwed in and they're not molded in place. So that they're adjustable. Mhm. So you can fine tune that little bit of adjustment at the end. You can dial that in on the pads. which I thought was really important. Because it's really hard to get everything perfectly perfect. all the time and you know, you change your body changes, everything changes. So like, um it's nice to have that little bit of adjustability. Um the the arrow savings penalty was incredibly low. when we did the calculations for it. Um so we decided that it was better to have the adjustability than than not. Um. In regards to the shape and size. Again, the size, um there are pads that are much smaller. Um they support your arms when they're pushing down. The problem is they don't really lock your elbows and your upper body in well. So we opted to go higher up the sides and have more support. Um it does make the pads slightly larger, makes a little bit more turbulence in that area. But it's negligible to what you gain by having your upper body locked in place. Mhm. Okay. Does that make sense? And then, um, I was looking at the competition specifically for the custom bars. Oh yeah, for sure. The other, um, high-end competition, I guess you'd say. And you were explaining titanium printing. Yes. As opposed to ours is carbon fiber. Yes, so it's it well, there's yes. It's there is. So the uh the main thing you're seeing right now. Arrow bars is custom titanium. I don't think it's just an arrow bars by the way. It's a powder bed printer. There's a lot of bike products. There's a lot. Are they titanium 3D print? Yes, they are. And that cost a load. It does, it's very expensive. Uh, yeah, it's very, it's a very. It's an expensive process. Um, it's cool. It's a very cool process. Um, so for arrow bar extensions in particular. Um, one. There's a cost, there's a cost factor to it. So, um, if you look at custom. Arrow extensions, they're, you know. I think they they pretty much start about twice the price. Of what our arrow bar extensions go for. The titanium. The titanium 3D printed ones. So they're they're costly. Um, to get full custom ones. And in most cases, you actually can't make them out of a single piece of titanium. 3D print. So you're making them out of usually two or, you know, sometimes three pieces. Sometimes two pieces. It's not like a, it's not like a 3D printer. Like a spool. It is a powder. It comes from powder. And it hardens. It is then hit with a laser, kind of like our SLA printers. Very similar process, except much higher, um, pressure. And it's actually. It's it's they're quite dangerous to work with. Because you have to be careful. Because it's it's literally micron thin powders. So the print time on those must be long. Yes, it's very long. And it's there's a cooling process. It's like, I mean. I would assume a set of full-blown arrow bar extensions, an entire build chamber is probably anywhere from 16 hours to 36 hours printing. If they're not doing high resolution. Which I'm assuming they're not because they would have to get print volume through pretty quick. Okay, well, that brings me to my next thing. As I was looking at the finish. Yes. Of the titanium bars. Yes. And they're very industrial looking. Uh, yes. And they're gray and they're like straight from the machine finished. And I didn't really notice it until you told me to like zoom in on it. Oh yeah, so I mean it's. Because you're you're you're curing it. You're curing the bars. It's done by by laser. So you're laser curing that part. And it's basically. I don't want to say welding. But I guess to make it simple. It's kind of like welding the powders together. You're fusing those powders together. Layer by layer. And when you do that, you're going to because you're dealing with a powder. Um, you're going to have a grainy kind of like casting look. So it has like a texture to it. But is that something you can just sand and paint? Yes, you can. But you're dealing with titanium. It's a very, very, very hard material. So, yes. In order to finish it. Um, I mean. If you're going to do it, you know, the way to do it. It probably is sticking in a five axis machine and actually like mill finish the surface. Um, the other way to do it is. You know, a lot of people are using, um, um, um. Uh, sand blasters and and grinders, um, and and like deburring tools. And to kind of like rub that finish down and polish it. Um, but it takes time. It takes time and it adds to cost. Well, I thought like, oh, this is the thing now. Like bare bone simplicity. But I guess anyway. You were telling me that the comments you got from ours. Because I was like, ours are really shiny. Mhm. Um, because we clear coat the finish them. And you said that the comments you've gotten from our testers were that they actually appreciated the clear and the gloss of the sheen. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, the other thing too. Is like if you're. had the friends and someone's like, oh, you know, I have my bike, I have a matte black bike and I wanted to match. It's like, okay. Yeah. So, it's not. But I was saying, so when I was looking at, I was, you know, because you can't our stuff's great, but you also have to be like your own critic. Yes, for sure. If you know me. Yes, our ultimate critic. Anyway, I was saying that ours in the photos because they're polished and then there's so many contours on them that they're just they seem busy. They seem like there's angular glare and I was like, our bars are just super busy. But you were saying that they're busy because each of those angles performs a function. Yes, so one of the other things about so titanium 3D printing is super, super cool. And you can you have very little constraints on what you can do. Well, that's not true. You have constraints. Um, so we have far less constraints because of the way we're manufacturing it. Um, so we're using um we're we're using a high temperature 3D printed SLA based, which is similar to powder fusion. Kind of resin, it's inverted resin with a laser. Um, similar but not similar, I guess. Um, but we're doing that and then we're fusing that with carbon fiber to bring um really strong like isotropic properties into that material. So we can make we we are we have far more flexibility in our shaping, sizing, wall thicknesses, tapering and strength characteristics that we can do. Um, and because of that, um, we are we can shape our bars more aggressively around flow and trying to achieve, um, you know, um, different techniques. And how we can try and bring that air around the rider. Um, so yes, the the bars. Like, for instance, Corey's bars, um, they have a nice little bumpy section, um, kind of a little bump thing on the side of the drops next to the pads. Um, that is so that we can bring the air more air around him. Around him. Um, Maybe they just look super bumpy because Corey's a super bumpy guy. Uh, yeah, he's he's got. He's got a very interesting position. It's got he's he's. Um, and he's very, you know, he's historically been basically, you know, a road crit sprinter his entire most of his career. Um, he has. He's very smooth and he's very um he's got a smaller stature, so he can be very tucked up and roll his shoulders in really well. And um. I mean, his frontal surface area is very low. Um, he's very quick. He's very, you know, as they say for the arrow stuff. He's very slippery. Um, so like it just those those those sections work to his benefit really well. Okay. So. Is there anything else before we move on? Um. I just wanted to talk about differences and. Yeah. Stuff like that. Okay. Um, yeah, and if anyone has questions about any of this stuff, you know, shoot us an email. Mhm. So another side project that we just wrapped up was a custom computer mount. Yes. I posted a photo on our social media pages. Yes. But explain what this customer requested and how you went about designing and manufacturing and finishing. Yeah, so we have a customer reached out to us about making a computer mount, like a stem mounted computer mount system. Um, and he wanted to have a computer in the front. And then also a light, and the light that he wanted was like a heavier light, and his computer was a bigger computer. So he had quite had a high load capacity on this setup that he needed. Um, and so he's looking for something a little bit stronger than what he had. Um, and he had some requirements on where he wanted it to mount. Like the angle and the direction of it and stuff. Um, so I was kind of it's kind of a little exciting of a project because. When we first moved out here like five or six years ago, I had talked about doing a computer mount. Um. Well, we have the rib mount. Yes, we have rib mounts for the back of the um, the back of the seat. Um, I wanted to do a carbon fiber computer mount for the front, the handlebars. It's something I've been wanting to do for a long time and we actually got approached by a company. To make them for them. Um, and we actually even made some some samples and stuff of it, but um, it didn't happen. Um, but uh, so it's kind of always been on my radar to do. So this was kind of like an opportunity to like do it. So it was exciting. It was really fun. Um. Um, yeah, it's it's it's a fun little. It was a fun little project. So. And I I I forgot what the weight was. What did they come in? Um, one of them, well, there's two different style, they're a little bit different, but they were between basically um, 20 to 23 grams. 24 grams and I think like 31 grams or something. They're pretty light. Um. Um, and they were they were very, very strong on their load capacity. So. Yep. Um. So yeah, it was a fun project. I definitely, I definitely had fun with that. And. We've gotten quite a few people that are interested in it. So maybe it'll turn into something one of these days. You've seen on the website. Mhm. So. Cool. Um, okay, well, um, things to mention. Before I wrap it up. Um, for those customers who are in need of cleat wedge adapters. We noticed that all alternative companies and competition sort of dried up. Yes. And their inventories. Which basically meant that they took a hit on our inventories to make up those missing sales. So I know on Amazon we're currently out of a lot of the key wedges for um, SPDSL, Delta and Kio. Um, I just want you to know that supplies are on their way. Yes, yes. So we three, we actually 3D print our designs in contrast to like others that do the injection molding pieces. Yeah, and and we actually we manufacture them ourselves. Yes. So we will be hitting the ground printing and getting those inventories um, back in. Yes. Soon. Yes. We've been we've been working on a lot of arrow bars and a lot of other parts and stuff. So our printers have been. Um. Tied up. So. Um, but yeah, so we are we are actively working on making more stock. Mhm. And it's those little things too that I think people just, I don't know. Always assume the little things are going to be there. Yeah, I mean, we we usually been pretty good at it. But we got hit pretty hard with uh, with demand. So and that's a great thing. But um, you know, we just had to kind of scale up a little bit. So. Yep. Okay. So let's wrap it up here. I was going to say you could get back to your out of death designs, but I just checked and they are still down. That's not good. So maybe we'll, um, oh, we can go see on those arrow bar extensions. There you go. Okay. Well, we thank you for choosing to take some time with us. And we look forward to future breakaways. Look for us on Instagram and LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, and in person here in Tennessee. We ask our listeners to please share, like, and subscribe. We're available on all major streaming platforms. Thanks for listening, have a good one and find some time to break away.
EpisodeNov 18, 2022 · 24:43
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Project Breakaway with Predator Cycling
38: The Key Ingredients to Custom Aerobar Extensions, EP. 038
Predator Cycling discusses their newly launched custom aerobar extensions, now available on their website. They delve into the evolution of aero bars, highlighting the shift from standard off-the-shelf options to custom-fit designs. The hosts explain how their custom extensions cater to different cycling disciplines and prioritize aerodynamics for optimal performance.
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