Hello and good day to you from episode 36 of our podcast series Project Breakaway. A metaphorical and literal time in the day when we here at Predator cycling take some time away. From working in the back shop to come and share with our listeners. What we're doing. How we're doing it. What it takes to do it. Our ideas, our innovative success stories and even our missteps and failures. If you find yourself with an interest in bicycles, composite manufacturing. Out of the box design or even curiosities beyond. I encourage you to stick with us. Settle in and learn a little. I'm Courtney B, co-owner and project manager of Predator cycling. And I'm here with my partner Arm Goan, the other co-owner, CEO, lead designer and engineer and. Arrow guru. How's it going, Arm? Oh. It's going pretty good. I was going with either Arrow guru, which was relevant to the topic today. Yes, or um, sleepy sleepy while I was up all last night with the six-month-old baby. You were, I was trying to come up with a nickname for you today, but I couldn't figure anything out. Because I'm not creative like that. But yes, you were up all night with a sick uh sick baby. Sick. Sick uh six-month-old. Here I am. And here you are. Coffee in hand, ready to go. Right and bushy tailed. Mhm. Okay. Well. Last episode. Yes. We talked about the aerobatic extensions. And how your test bar was released and ridden by Corey Williams of um Legion of Los Angeles. At the Valley of the Sun stage race. Yep. We got a lot of feedback on those extensions. And they are currently still under kind of a testing review process with you. Yeah. So we we passed. It it worked as expected. It worked better than expected in the actual race itself. The results we got. It worked as expected. What if it didn't work as expected? Well, then we would have to revisit a whole lot of things. I think by expected you mean like because it was custom to his arms and you had to do it. Like he wasn't here in person when you were molding it. So it was like it was a crap shoot if it was going to fit his arm well. Well, yeah. I mean, we were testing out. So the the thing about Corey is that I mean, you know. We go way back with the. With Corey. And so I was experimenting with our workflow of how it's going to work. With other customers that are remote. So that we're kind of coming up with the workflow that makes sense. So that we could get data from him accurately and easily and reproduce it. And then build it here. You know, um remote and then send it to him and it would function. So like that was the big test for us. Is that workflow and then also, you know. How the bars performed. It's. Um, it's a material and it's a it's a process that we've tested on other things. But we haven't tested in like this particular application. So, um, it was really good to get his feedback. And now we're just kind of fine tuning some of our um. Um processes on how it works and streamlining it so that we can make it a little more efficient. Yeah. You're going to build up another set of these. Yeah, he's getting we're doing another set for him. We're going to we're going to make him a little bit lighter. Um, we're doing a little bit better um integration for the bike computer. I thought you weren't allowed to have a bike computer. Uh, that's for track race. You can have a bike here on the you're thinking of track racing. So on the Velodrome, you can have a bike computer for data logging, you cannot see it. Uh-huh. So on a on a time trial, you you are allowed to log it and you're allowed to see it. Hmm. So, um, the yeah, so he we're I'm cleaning up how that works. So that it's a little easier. And so that it's a little faster. So the bar is faster, so he goes faster while riding the bar. Mhm. The bar itself is not fast. The bar is fast. It's the wind flow over the bar that makes the person faster. Our our three-year-old would argue with you and say, no. The bar is fast. Um, okay, so you're going to um, build up another set, test them. And then after all of that gets green lit. They'll officially be available on the website. They'll be officially on the website and we're just kind of also cleaning up some of the the ways that you're going to be able to order the bar. Just like you'll be able to go on the website because it's custom. You can't just like go on and click and be like, oh. I have a bar coming in the mail tomorrow. No, so you're going to go online and you'll be able to purchase the bar itself. And then we're basically going to have we're we're cleaning up on the process and how we're going to get the data from you, the information, show you the samples and then. Right, because you're going to have to like show us your position, your writing positions and it's like a whole team effort. Yes, and so and then we send you a sample, a 3D printed FFF 3D printed sample of the bars. So the sample will be coming in the mail. Yeah. Um, which is just like a uh um uh a plastic representation of the bars that are not rideable like on the road, but they can work on a trainer. So you can make sure the position is locked in and everything's right. And then we send you the final ones once you okay those. So if you check in now on the website, it says they're sold out. Yes. So because there was interest and then people go to the website and they're like, hey, these are sold out. Well, they're test test parts and they'll be coming soon. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. We should you can't put on the website. Coming soon. I. You can, but it's a whole technical thing, right? It it just takes a couple hours to just change a bunch of things around and I. Right, and for people who are up with a six-month old baby last night, you're just going to get sold out. You're going to get the sold out. Okay. So I apologize for that, but I just there's only so much I can do. Okay. So the extensions, um. That's the status of the extensions. And that's segueing into the next product, which we officially released um via social media last week, the render and pictures of the first test uh track bar. Yes. That's exciting. It's all exciting. So these are our newly updated major pilot track bars. Yep. So the major pilot is specifically for track racing, not to be confused with the original major handlebar system, which is for road. Yes. That's not confusing at all. Hey, let's name our bars the same thing. Well, it's the same, it's a series. It's a, okay, so it's a series. The major original major handlebar is for road. More to come on those later. Yes. The major pilot track bar. Yeah. Named by yours truly, pilot. Uh. So let's discuss those. Yeah, let's do it. So we released the pilot track bars. Back in 20. 15. 13. 13. It's when we moved, it's right before we moved here. We were in Canoga Park, we were in Canoga Park when we released it. Okay, so like 2015. Yeah, I want to say 14, 15. Like six years ago. Yeah. Um, and they were a cool design that you released. And then they, um, magically disappeared. Yes. So, um, this new one. It's kind of a. Hold on. Yeah. We're. Okay. We're putting life back into it. Um, it's a new design. And. The shape is a little different. And. On social, you the pictures, we put all these different hand placements. And all this new stuff. So explain. Um. Okay, so like the the the new pilots. So the new pilot. Is a, it's completely different bar. The top, the top section of the bar looks somewhat familiar. Um, and like where the stem section integrates the original pilots. There's there's some similarities there. Um, but it is a completely different shape. Um, those bars were designed. Um, they're designed for mass start track racing. So you're talking points races, um, uh, scratch races, missing out, Madisons, those types of races. Um, they work perfectly well for sprint. But they're not, they're not specifically designed for sprinting. Um, so the thing that we talked a lot about is hand positions. Um, the UCI has kind of changed around some of the rules. On, well, they haven't changed the rules, the way they're enforcing the rules are different. Okay. So UCI used to, you used to be able to do this like kind of praying mantis kind of off the front of the bar position. Which our bars were designed for. Um. And you could rest your forearm and your wrist. Right. Kind of. You could rest your forearm, like the center of your forearm on the top of the bars and basically hang your hands off the front of it. And that would get you a really good arrow position. Um, the UCI has since on the road said that they're going to enforce the touch point. There's a touch point rule. Where it says where you can touch the bike is on your basically your your feet, your rear and your two hands. So that's how they're interpreting that rule now. That it's your hand has to touch the bar, not your forearm. I just side note, that's for road. That's for road and track. And doesn't some people like when they're going downhill. Like right on their bellies and stuff. They can't actually do that anymore. That super tuck is now is now also outlawed. Okay. So it's feet, butt and hands, not belly. Not belly and you can't sit on the top tube. Or. So you can't sit on the top tube. That's what we do like. I mean, that's what I used to do. I don't know why I thought handlebar. But yes, on the handle bars is what came into my mind. But you also also people have done that. Why would you do that? That doesn't make you go faster. No, a person crashes and someone jumps on the top tube or sits on the handlebars. Oh, to catch up until their bike comes. No, just to get them to the finish line, just to like taxi them to the finish line. Because you have to cross the finish line, not your bike. Yeah, you you have to cross the finish line. Oh, okay. So, um, they've also that rule is not. Well, I mean, but like no one ever did it because like they just did it to finish the race. Like not to like for timing anyway. So then for track racing, you're slight tangent here. Same. But. Tocus. Tocus. As my son was learning new words. Um, to kiss hands and feet. So you can't put your forearm on the. Okay, so explain the hand the hand situation. So we changed the new we changed the bar design quite a bit. So the the hand position now, we have this if you look on the Instagram photos, which we'll attach photos on the on the post for this on our website. Yes. Um, the hand position is this really cool position where you can grab like the sides kind of where the hoods would be for your levers and the way it's shaped is so that your forearm cannot make contact with the top of the bar. So you can't even accidentally do it. Like you can't accidentally go into that position, so there's no way you can get penalized. Mhm. Um, and the other thing that we did is we really narrowed up the tops of the bars. Very narrow. They're the tops are very narrow so that you can get a really good arrow talk. Um, on those tops. And then there's. Anyway, that's the big thing is there. And then the other one that we did is the way that top section is shaped is very much designed around how the aerodynamics affect um the front aerodynamics of the front of the bike affect the rider itself. We're attempting to try and disturb the air in the right places so that it doesn't um it helps the rider break. The rider can sit in the draft, quote unquote, of the bars. And you're doing all that in simulation. We're doing all of that in in in CFD simulation, yeah. Um, and then if you go down towards the the drops. The drops are have a very cool shape. It's a very um it's a it's a it's an arrow profile that's also rotated. So that we can try and actually get the air to go around the cyclist a little bit. And it makes a difference. It's I we were going to put some like stats numbers up, but the problem is is that like every time we simulate it with like different rider positions and different pedaling strokes. And size of legs. All the numbers change. So I decided to just not put numbers that are like, you know, not actually what you're going to see on the track because it's only given for a certain circumstance. But that's what the attempt is, is the attempt is to try and get the air to go around the cyclist a little bit. We can do some. Not a whole lot. But um because we are still restricted on the size of those bars. But also the the rotation of it allows for your hand position to be really nice. So as you go into the center of the drop, it kind of rotates out a little more. So you can kind of have like a gorilla type hold where your elbows are kind of sticking out. So even though the base is super, super narrow, Um, I say super narrow, it's it's it's like 34 and a half millimeter centimeter width. So when you grab that center section, if you kind of pull your elbows in, you can get a nice arrow tuck in there. But if you don't, you can kind of very naturally bend your elbows out and have a place to breathe. So, um, Yeah, there's a lot of thought that goes into those bars. because we've been making bars for Yeah, so you 12 years. Um, you have, uh, we released the bars to the general public. So review and look at and whatever. But you've also been sending it to track cyclists. Yeah. And, um, I guess just taking like a quick glance at it. You're like, oh, cool bar. But then when you talk to Arm and he tells you all the things he can do, I guess the cyclists are saying like, oh, I didn't even think about that. Like I didn't think about that position. I did do that position, but I don't think about it. Right. So like one of the things like, I mean, okay. We said we talked about we came out the pilot in 2014, 2015. But like prior to that, during when we just made the majors, I think we released them in 09. I think around. Um, those bars, we made a track version very quickly afterwards. Like we made a basically, we called them nubs, this little area we can put your hands like, you know, fake shifters kind of set up. Um, and so we've been making bars for endurance track racers and sprinters for a very long time. Um, and we've got a lot of feedback and one of the big things that's really important, especially in mass start events is actually recovery. Because you're on the front in a points race for a certain amount of time to get your points. And then you go to the back of the pack and you try and basically rest, recover, breathe, um, and Madisons, you ride relief at the top of the track. I mean, there's a lot of sections where you just need to be able to like catch your breath, relax. My favorite position. Yes, exactly. So, there's a lot of positions in there that are designed so that you can get a really good arrow position. But when you're in the pack, you can open up your arms and you can breathe, stand up, get a little bit more vertical so that you can get more air into the lungs and recover quicker. Like that's one of the ideas behind it. Um, we also in the center section, we have a really cool design for where you can kind of grab for a Madison exchange. Uh-huh. Which is important for Madisons, you get a lot of more stability. Um, So, yeah. It's kind of like the the well the original design. The original design was more, um, I called it, I called it the pilot. I think we have different versions of why we name things and stuff. But I called it the pilot because the original looked like the nose of an airplane. It does, it still does. And you are riding it, so you're technically the pilot. Yeah. Okay. So, yeah. It's a little different. I feel like the original one was a little bit more nosy. If that makes sense. Oh, yeah. It was. Pointy, nosy. It was. Because it was a little wider too. It was very much wider. Yeah, the real estate on top was a lot more. Yeah. And now this one, anyway. So you were talking about the hand position. So you grab the nose. You can grab the nose and what you basically where that little where the where the bars go down at the nose. Your thumb can sit there really nicely. And when you grab it, you actually are grabbing like basically where the stem would be. The stem cap. So you're when you do a Madison exchange, you're you're basically pulling on the bars backwards as you're flinging the person. Yeah. And so when you do that and it's a bar stem system integrated like that, you're basically pulling the bike down the center of the bike. So you're not twisting the bars when you do it. Which is there's a lot of crashes that happen in Madison exchanges and a lot of the crashes happen because your hand is too far out and you actually twist the bike and twist the bars a little bit and then you throw the person too hard and you kind of crash into each other. Yeah. I think the obviously I encourage everyone to look at the pictures because our descriptions are only so much than the visual image. But you're talking about so like when you're writing with one hand. On the nose. I got a new I have a new way to describe this. It isn't nose because it's still the pilot. But actually because there's a divot you said where your thumb goes in. It's more of a butt chin. Yeah. Okay. It's a little knob and it has a little divot. Like a little butt chin you put your thumb there. And that balances your one hand on the bike. Yeah, it helps a lot. And um, you know, we noticed it because we had there was we had a rider guy East. Um, who I probably raced more six days and you know, Madison races on our bars than anybody else. Um, and he used to always come back and he's like, I literally we have this like reinforced we used to put in. And he's like, I literally push against that in a Madison exchange. Like it's the best thing ever and I grab it and I. Um and Austin Carroll too, he raced on he had a TK1 setup that we built for him and he did um the same thing. He used to always talk about grabbing the center of the stem there. And it's like. So we've taken, you know, 10 years of feedback that we've gotten from a lot of custom bars that we've built. Um and tried to put all of that into the bar. So the bar is not just trying to be fast. I mean that's that's always our our concept is not just to be fast in a CFD test or a wind tunnel test. But like thinking about it from the perspective of, yes, we need to be fast when we're on the front, but when we're in the pack, we need to be able to get the rider to breathe and recover and be able to um, you know, go back to the front and just hit it even harder. Like so it it's that balancing act. You have to think about a lot of things. Mhm. So it's it's complicated. Okay. So the new pilot major track bar. It's a design for um multiple touch points and it looks cool. And you know, it's one piece. Our stem system. Yeah, it is a one piece. That's always the only thing we do. Yes. Um and then the other thing too with the the new ones that are different is that it's designed. So the front bar system we can change that. So we could make it wider or even narrower. But it's really been optimized out. So we're trying to not change that effect. And what we're trying to do and we say custom is we can make any stem angle. And any stem length. And we're offering the service of making it for any proprietary bike mounting system out there. So if you have a, you know, the new look uh T20 or if you have um a TK1 or if you have of an Argonaut. we can make the the the mount location so that it's it's not there's no adapters needed. It's a factory mount. we may need you to provide us with the actual stem cap so that we can copy it. and make the correct mounting locations. but we are going to offer that for all of them. So when these do, these are custom. These are custom, these are not stock. It's a. parts. It's a semi custom. I mean, we can make it anything. But I just I don't. But it won't be a stock part when you go on the website and you click order. When you click order. Again, like the extension is not coming to you next day. Right, no. It's you're going to click order and then you're going to have to supply, you'll get basically emailed. and a follow up probably from me about getting some additional information. It's going to be for me. Hey, you order a bar. you get a follow up from me about talking about getting some data points and some information that we need. and then we'll basically give you a 3D mock up. that you can view. and we'll do it on a represented version of your bike. And then once you approve those, we will manufacture them and ship them out. Mhm. Cool. So, um, let's. And just one last thing about those bars. No. No, I'm just kidding. Um, so the reason that they're coming out so quickly after the arrow bar extensions. is because they're built using the same tech. It's the same process that the arrow bar extensions are built. and and these bars are built. It's the same. It's the same process. I know you've talked about it before. But. that that's why there's a lot of these parts that are going to be coming out in succession because it's the same underlying. Bam, bam, bam, bam. Basically. Part here, part here, part here. Well, because. That's how I like it. Yeah. So that's that's that's exactly what we're doing and that's why. So it's not some, you know. Okay, so let's kind of. I wouldn't say go back, let's go parallel laterally. I don't know. Okay. Uh, why did the original pilot bar get sidelined? And how are these different? I think we kind of touched on how they're different. Yeah. But why did we stop? Why did we stop? What's the interest in revisiting the design and relaunching the bars? Okay, so the original. I mean, without getting too much into the weeds of how it all works. Um, the original design was similar. that there was a 3D printed dissolvable core system inside the bar. and then they were basically infusion molded. an assisted infusion mold. Um, but basically meaning that it was a dry carbon. and we vacuumed it and then basically sucked and pushed carbon into it. It was basically like RTM. Um, but the the problem was that we had. is it was way too time consuming. The time it was. the the time consuming. I mean, we didn't realize at first how much time it was going to take to make each bar. Um. I know it was difficult. I mean, the design. Well, the design was also. very thin. This is thinner. Oh, is it? This is thinner. Uh, well, for that molding process. or that manufacturing process. that specific bar was so thin that it was just kind of a pain in the ass. Yeah. I can say ass on my podcast. It was a pain in the ass. Um, yeah, so it was, it's, it's it was very challenging. The design of the original pilot was a challenging design. The new version of the pilot is even more challenging of a design. Um, but the manufacturing process is totally different. Um, and the problem that we had with the original pilots, you know, we were anticipating, you know, six or seven hours to make each bar. Labor wise. Um, and we were, I think closer to 50 or 60 hours. Um, and it just became unscalable. Like we just couldn't do the bars. Um, and that's one of the things that led us down the path of the new bars. Um, because we ran into so many problems, like the concept that we had on how we were making it was there. Um, we were on the right track. We just didn't have the tech wasn't available at the time to do it. Um, some of the simulation tech wasn't there, the manufacturing tech wasn't there. Well, I think just you, I mean, your design work has gotten obviously it's improved in the last six years. Yeah, for sure. So. Hopefully. Um, but yeah, it is, it is, if you look at the two bars side by side, um, I mean it's ridiculous the difference. You're like, hey, that's cool. This one's cooler. I I I sent a couple of the samples of these bars, um, to some of our, some of my composite buddies that are not in the bike industry, outside of the bike industry. And just like modeling a like molding approach. And they're like, you can't mold it. Like it's just that's way too complicated of a part. Um, it's a very complicated surface finish and and that's why we have this new hybrid manufacturing system. So, um, but yeah, that's that's why. And we didn't, the thing too is we didn't want to release. We didn't want to go to a traditional clam shell, single part lined, six part handle bar mold. Because that wasn't going to get us the optimal position that we needed for a cyclist. It wasn't going to work. Because your cross sections have to be in a certain way. It didn't work every time we ran CFDs on it. It wasn't optimized. So we decided that, you know, we had to figure out this manufacturing process. So we could make a bar that was appropriately quick. Um, so. And then how are these new bars different from what else is out in the market now? Because comparing them is not, I mean, obviously we look at competition before we put out any product. But these didn't seem like they were comparable to like really anything. It's a hard, it's a hard comparison to make. So, I mean, I so the the most so if you look at it from a manufacturing technical standpoint, the only thing that's really comparable to it is a fully 3D printed titanium part. That there are people making. They're making people that are making a one piece titanium printed bar stem system. Um, you know, they're in the realms of $5,000 to $10,000 for a bar like that. Um, those are comparable, um, in the sense that you can achieve some of the geometrical positions. I mean, like the the geometry of how the bar is. can be achieved using those processes. I would I would argue that we could probably achieve some we have more flexibility than some of those processes. But that's what compares it to. Now, the price points of our track bars, we're coming in at 1800. is the is going to be the the retail price for the bars. Um, Again, that's bar stem combo though. It's a bar stem combo. You can go online and buy a really cool bar and then you're like, oh, I bought the bar. Oh, no, now I need the stem. Now I'm about now I'm I'm up there. Yeah, so I mean if you buy a high-end bar now, I mean a track bar, you're looking at anywhere from, you know, 600 to 800, 900 for a high-end bar. A high-end stem, 200, 300. You know, 1,000 bucks, 1,000 bucks, 1,200 bucks for a bar stem system, you know, on the market today. The other problem that you come into is is that we we're able to do it fully custom. stem angle, stem length and mount location. So if you're running like a look or a, you know, an Argonaut or you're running, um, um, a felt. That mount location's different. So, um, More love goes into this bar. And love is priceless. So really, how can you put a price on these? Yes. So it's it's interesting. So, um, But we have put a price on them. So you said $1,800. $1,800. And so, anyways, my point is is that it's it's hard to compare it. And also if you start looking at some of the performance characteristics of the bars, it's not comparable. Um, in that sense. Right. And then if you even look at the cross sections, it's like you can start understanding really quick how you can't cut a part line on those bars. There's there's And just the support you receive from Predator cycling. Call any other company and and have the engineer answer the phone and have a 20-minute conversation. 20 minutes. Oh my goodness, two-hour conversation with you about the bars. Really? No one. Call here. Call early because I like to go home too. Sorry. I like it. It's cool. Okay, so quick, quick, quick, what is the release timeline looking like for these bars? Um, so we're shipping out the first, we've made the the sample, the in-house sample tests here. Um, we've done. Um, we're now getting ready to do the first batch of, um, road the track tested ones. Um, and those are going to be going out, um, um, the end of this month, beginning of next month. We're trying to get those out. So we're like two to three months out. We're about, you know, end of next month, we should have results back. And know where we stand. Um, we should we should be hopefully making them available for sale. And also, are these UCI legal? They are UCI. They will be UCI compliant. Okay. Um, yes, they will be a UCI compliant bar. Now, the only catch to that is is that you could technically make them too long. So that's why we need to measure them on the bike. There's a rule, 5 cm extension past the front axle of the bike. So we do need rider information. I mean, if you made a stem too long, you could be non-compliant. You still have a cool bar. You would still have a cool bar. Okay, and eventually these track pilots will lead to the major road bar. Yes. as the year goes on. But I'm not going to talk about that now. That's a whole other episode. Okay. Okay. But when you do have that episode, I have a lot to say about it. Well, yes. We all know that. Things to mention, I'm recently presented at Nvidia's GTC 2022 again. Last week, two weeks ago, two weeks ago. Yeah. Um, I believe your talk was on the Omniverse platform and it was really interesting. Um, to me and my toddler who was watching you and screaming at the screen. Um, and that's not just because I was the ghost writer/responder in real-time questioning for that. Wasn't I? Uh, that was the you're talking about the panel. Oh, the panel. Oh, you did two things. I did two things. Yeah, I had the panel that was talking about uh essentially digital twins and manufacturing for Omniverse. Yeah. You did a lot for Nvidia. You probably continue to. Probably. They're a cool company. Okay. And then so, um, and then again, check out our website for random components. especially for professional bike fitters. We're getting ready to offer some wholesale pricing modules. We've gotten an insane influx in pedal washer sales and safeguard shim sales. Yep. Um, so I guess those are two items cyclists really don't think about until you need them. Yep. So, um, get them while they're hot. Um, we're also going to be releasing um safeguard shims for SPD. Mhm. And leg length shims for all the offerings, Keo, Delta, Speedplay, SPD, SPD SL. Mhm. And those will be stock items. Yep, those will. And I think that's it. Anything else for we go? No, I think I cover you think you covered everything. I mean, of course, like always, I have a lot more to say, but you know. Well, okay. Well, there's more episodes. There's always the future. Okay, we thank you for choosing to take some time with us. And we look forward to future breakaways. Look for us on Instagram and LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, and in person here in Tennessee. We ask our listeners to please share, like, and subscribe. We're available on all major streaming platforms. Thanks for listening, have a good one. Find some time to break away.
EpisodeApr 7, 2022 · 29:08
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Project Breakaway with Predator Cycling
36: "Kick the tires and light the fires," The Major Pilot Track Bar is Back, EP. 036
In this episode of Project Breakaway, Courtney B and Arm Goan provide an update on the successful testing and custom ordering workflow for their aerobatic extensions. The main event, however, is the reintroduction and redesign of their "Major Pilot Track Bar," a new version specifically engineered for track racing with an emphasis on versatile hand placements.
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