Hello and good day to you from episode 30 of our podcast series Project Breakaway. A metaphorical and literal time in the day when we here at Predator cycling take some time away from working in the back shop to come and share with our listeners what we're doing, how we're doing it, what it takes to do it, our ideas, our innovative success stories, and even our missteps and failures. If you find yourself with an interest in bicycles, composite manufacturing, out of the box design, or even curiosities beyond, I encourage you to stick with us. settle in and learn a little. I'm Courtney B, co-owner and project manager of Predator cycling. And I'm here with my partner, Arm Goan, the other co-owner, CEO, lead designer and engineer, and toddler punching bag. How's it going, Arm? It's doing great. I'm glad I got a. I got a new job title today. You got a new job title. Well, it's not directly for the shop or anything you're doing here. But certainly filling in a role at home. Yes, I have definitely turned into a toddler punching bag. That's a pretty accurate statement. We were hoping that our three-year-old would be a really great cyclist. Turns out he might be a wrestler. That's okay. He doesn't have to be a cyclist. Um, yeah, yeah. He is uh, he he he likes body slamming his daddy. Yeah, well, good thing you're a strong Armenian. built like a truck. Yeah, the the only thing is so is he. Yeah. So, yeah. Well, you know. We'll see what happens. Yeah, so, uh, it is officially fall. It is. Um. And it's like we're over the hill. Is that what you say? 30? Like the episode 30? Oh, is that 50? No, that's 40. I mean, like, are you talking like birthday? Yeah. 40 is over the hill. This is episode 30. We're still like youthful. Yet it hurts to wake up in the morning. Okay, I can go with that. Okay, I can connect. Um, okay. So it's officially fall. Um, which is usually the end of our, um, busy cycling season, the summer season. Yeah, it's coming to an end. Um, but for us, it's a time to ramp up on production of our stock items. So that we are all good to go for quarter one 2023. Yep. Um, so we've been basically, um, putting the 3D printers through the ringer. Yep. Tweaking and updating our 3D printer and cleat wedges. Um, restocking the genius water bottle cages. And, um, we're finally getting to printing or getting orders and printing the pro version custom cleat adapters. Yep. Um, and getting them out into the world. So, um. We've been really busy. Yes, we have been. Yeah, we have been really busy. So, we have, uh, mentioned on the previous episode, episode 29, we're talking about the cleat adapters. versions available. And kind of explaining because I don't know anything about it. The difference between the look and the Delta and the Kio, SPD, SPD SL versions. Yeah. And what those mean to your specifically. choices, I guess. Right. Anyway, um, those are all stock components available. Both on our website and Amazon Prime, if you are a member and a fan of Amazon. Yeah. So we have them both. Um, so our custom pro custom version. Yeah. Um, I we've mentioned it, but I don't think we've mentioned it specifically. As like what it is, what it means. For sure. Um, it's an individualized print. That is solely made for one individual person. Customized. Yeah, it's it's fully customizable. Um, and that person really needs to either know a lot about their cycling cleats, then their desired angles and thicknesses. Or it's someone who has gone to a professional bike fitter. Yep, exactly. Um. So we have offer an instructional guide on the website. Um, and as well as on the box if you buy the cleats, there's a little QR code you can scan with and it leads you to the instructions on the website. And that kind of gives you a very basic way to how to measure your foot on your own. Yeah, it gives you an idea of at least how to get started and it works really well if you're looking at um, the stock uh, cleat adapters. It works great. Yeah, it helps you determine like if you have to stack them or whatever. It may not be the right approach if you're looking, you don't want to jump right into set of the the the pro custom. Right. Um, cleat adapters. So that rolls into a bike fitting. Yes. Yes. So. Um. Uh, we are a print manufacturer. But how vital is the bike fit to creating that custom writing environment or solution that we're trying to, you know, get for our customers overall? So basically explain like, we make custom bikes. Great. But like, as far as my knowledge, I was like, I get on a bike. I'm like, this is too small. This is too big. Right. This feels weird. And so explain like how bike fit fits into the scenarios. Yeah, I mean, like the thing with us is is like bike fit was. I mean, the inception of Predator, like when we when I first decided I wanted to make a time trial bike. Um, the idea was always that you're going to build a bicycle around the optimal position of that person. In that case, it was me. I was a junior. I wanted to win some bike races. I wasn't fast enough. I needed every edge I could get. I thought this would be an edge. Um, so I wanted to build a bicycle that was meant to fit me. Um, and that in turn is. Is talking about bike fit. Because you need to put your your your human body in the optimal position to put out the most amount of power. Be as efficient as possible for like cutting into the wind. But there are like studies. Like your. Oh yeah. Back needs to be at this angle to cut through the wind or your hands need to be here. Your shoulders need to be tucked in here. There's a bunch of different theories on how to do it. And there's balancing. So your bike needs to like accommodate those angles. your body. Yeah, and I mean there's certain ways you can make certain components adapt better to fit those positions. But it was always under the idea like this. Like, okay. We'll start at the base. And the the the. I mean, the the structure that we're trying to make is you. But the base of the bicycle is the frame. And that kind of gets everything into position. So that was always like a core of ours. So we were always revolving around this idea of fit. And how to fit a bicycle to a person. Um and and over the years we've kind of got. More nitpicky. I mean, if you kind of look at our history. Obviously we started with like frames. And then, you know, we had arrow bars that we were doing our S bend curves and custom bent um arrow extensions. And then we kind of from there we went into. Um custom handlebar systems and how the handlebars would work. It's about. I mean. Kind of geared towards track. Cuz. Um endurance pursuit riding. You know, endurance events. Pursuit. Um those kinds of events. Those were touch points. And those are things that were super customizable and we could make you fit better. And make you more efficient. Um so it's kind of always been at our core. Um so the cleat adapters, um especially the pro. Um custom system is really at the core of kind of what predator is. It's about making you efficient on a bicycle. It's making you. Work with the bike, not against the bike. So relieving pain. Making you more efficient. Lining up your body better so that you can produce more power and be more comfortable. And reduce the chance of injury. So like there's how you sit on a bike and how you fit. And if you're big or small or whatever. But then there's like a fit within a fit. Like how your stroke of your pedal stroke is. And like the angle of your feet on the pedal, like I guess determines. Cuz people people got some messed up feet. They do. So your angles and arches and I mean I'm not a. Yes. So there's there's a lot of. And there's also like. So you have, you know, what we refer to as like, you know, your front view. If you're looking at. If you're riding towards me, like right into my face. Like that front view. Um is really key. Because that kind of really lets you look at how the knee travels. And where that that stance with you should be. So where do you want? Where's like an optimal? You want everything flat? You want your knee flat? Or do you want an angle? You want your knee, you want your knee to be essentially straight. So that when you're pedaling up and down, if I'm looking, if you're coming straight at me and I'm looking at your knee. You want it to be going up and down in a straight line. So if I have like a tilt on my foot. If I have like a super high arch. I guess my knees going to go like outside. The arch has something to do with it, but not a whole lot. Um collapsing arches can have a lot to do with things. But that gets more complicated. Oh, cuz the adapters go on the base of your foot. They go on the bottom of the shoe. And angle the shoe. So that it kind of aligns the foot to match up with the pedal. Oh, remember, you're still talking to someone who doesn't like, I don't know, clip in. I just like. No, you just have platforms. Slide in. Yeah. Um, but yeah. That's the point. The point is to make. that integration better. And like for someone like myself, like I run um SPD SLs. The Shimano cleat system. Um and I run on my right shoe, I run a two and a half degree angle. And then I run a 1.5 mm leg length discrepancy. Which I just kind of realized means like one leg is shorter than the other. Um and I actually don't have one leg shorter than the other. Are you sure? Have you measured? I I was measured a long time ago. You know, people uh shrink as they get older. Oh God. This is like. Seriously, is where you're going to go with this? No, but your body like changes, right? It absolutely does. So you probably need to get like frequently measured. Probably, I probably should get frequently measured. and all that. physically and mentally. Yes, yes. After all the brain trauma I received in the last couple weeks from being body slammed. I should probably get everything measured. Um but no, the idea is that so what happened with me is I have a little bit of a roll in my hips when I ride. Yeah, you do. Oh my God. This is are we going to get anywhere today? Oh my God. She's giggling like a little school girl. Oh my gosh. Okay. Um, I got a little bit of roll in my hip. Okay, we're just going to bypass that. Um, but yeah, so in order to compensate for that, um a 1.5 mm um leg length shim fixes that. It helps me. So that'd be a custom version that we make. So that's. You're a custom kind of guy. I am. And so I used to use like before we started making these, I would use five different adapter pieces underneath my cleats to get everything to work. You're talking about millimeters, right? Yeah. And that really makes it like. Oh yeah, it makes a huge difference. Not like an inch or something. No, no, no, no, just you're talking very small amounts of material. But like that made such a huge difference in my cleat. But like the problem was over time. My cleat would hit my my pedal would hit the the the spacer. And it would just like ruin it. And then it get harder and harder to clip in. Then the material would fold over into my cleat. And it get jammed. What material? The the part that was the wedge. That wedge material. Oh, the plastic. The plastic would come it's it's kind of like poke out the front because it wasn't perfectly fitted in the shape of the cleat. And so like I would have always these problems. And there's all these layers and it didn't stack right on top of each other. And it would move. And it was just annoying to set up. Um and so I had, you know, we'd looked to doing this a long time ago. But didn't quite have the the the manufacturing ability. Um. And so when we added it, um. This was kind of like an obvious fix. Like and so I started printing them for myself. And it worked amazing. Um. And now it's just one piece. It's nothing moves. It's all structured together. Um it's ceramic. For the custom one. Yeah, for the custom units. And it's all ceramic coated. So like. The custom ones are ceramic. The stock ones are just. The custom. 3D print material. Yeah, they are they're not they're um they're post cured but they are not um coated. Right, but they're supposed to be like um the material we use is like super strong. It is really, really resilient. Um it's also um it does it does well. It's all been post cured. So it doesn't really have a UV problem. It's also underneath a cleat, underneath a shoe, it doesn't see a whole bunch of UV rays. So it's not a major deal. And the ceramic coating for the custom one does what? Well, because the custom ones have a um in most cases you're doing a leg length discrepancy as well. So it has a base plate, so there's a contact between the the actual plastic and um the the pedal. Um that ceramic coating makes it much more resilient to that. Also, the idea is you've already been fitted and you know exactly what you're doing. So you want these to last as long as possible. Right. So the ceramic coating helps it last longer. Right. Okay. Well, um. So you bike fit. You you do bike fit. I mean, someone comes in like, hey, I need to get fit for my bike. Arms like, great, I can do it. I'm really super awesome at it. That's exactly what I said. Super duper awesome. You you're you're much better at talking to customers than me. But um you learned from um your your buddy Paul Swift. Yes. Who um was a founder of a company called Bike Fit. Yep. He was. And and he actually did my first bike fit. On you. On me. Yes. When I was 13. So he's the one that told you your hips were really rolly. Oh my God. Uh so, bike fit, there's a company who, um, yes, they make components. But the sole sole purpose of bike fit when they started was uh bike fit education. Like he teaches classes. He does. So the first product that they released was um it was the their cleat wedge. It was the original cleat wedge. Um and it was oh gosh, I think it was called the big meat. I'm right. I'm I'm pretty sure that's what it was called. I actually have. For a wedge? Yeah, for their first wedge that they did. Um which was a three hole, I think it was just the three hole wedge they did. Which was like the look old look. Delta style. Um and they only did it in a one degree. Um and he did that and then they came out with a a bunch of different products over the years. And they've also um they also did education, education was huge for them. Mhm. Um and teaching bike fit. And and he really pioneered. He might have been the first person to really do it, but I'm but he was definitely one of the the very first people to do it. Was the um the front view stance with, looking at stance with and how your knees are tracking. He was one of the things he. Because he came from the track, right? Uh he was he raced with Marty Norstein back in the day. He's a big track racer. He was on our old old podcast when we were in LA. Yeah. So yeah, he he did my first fit and he really is the one that kind of turned my attention to bike fitting. And pulling, I mean, I didn't. That really spoke to you like in the way of how you were going to do your fray, like. Yeah. Because I mean, I noticed the difference. he did my fit. I was having knee problems. He fit me. And it was like, oh my God. Like this is so much better. Like this is so much. I was like, I I felt so much stronger. I felt so much better. Mhm. And I when I remember the first time I talked to him, I was bugging him about like arrow bars. And like what I could do. And you know, he gave me a bunch of pointers and how to do things. And it just it really kind of inspired me to think about fitting. Differently. And I mean, I hadn't started. Predator yet. I was like two years a year away from starting predator in my first frame. But that kind of really stuck in my head. And it was like, oh. Right. Like I should really think of. I mean, this is really important. You're always thinking about how someone fits on a bike. Yeah, when we drive up and down the street. In LA. Not so much here in Tennessee because there's so much less bikes. But in LA. Yeah. A lot of cyclists going up and down the PCH. Yeah. And I would just be like. You don't fit on your bike. You even yell at them. No. You know, with the windows down. No. I just mumbled in the car. You just yelled at me to, you know, let me know that they didn't look right on their bike. I don't think it was a yell. It was more like a mumble of like. You need a bike fit. You just you're going to blow your knees out. Like that's going to hurt. Your knees out. Yeah. Um. Yeah. So. Um. And then, yeah, so we did. We did when we first opened our shop in Abbot Kenny, it was the first time we started offering fitting services as a service. Um. And at the time, Paul didn't teach like group classes. It was only private like, you know, shop classes. He taught. And we used his protocol back then. And then later I actually started teaching, I took his class when they started offering group classes. And got my certificate that way through him. And then started teaching. Um at Slow Twitch. Slow Twitch is a is a triathlete school. That does fitting and they do a cleat interface course, which is that Paul used to teach. And I used to teach that. And he's doing that. Under. Uh he's not with bike fit any longer, but he has a company that he does it under right now. What's his company's name? Um Cycle Point. Cycle Point. Was the. Was the education side. Yeah. Uh bike fit. Got sold. Last year. Um. But you can still find Paul. At Cycle Point. Yeah. Yeah. He's still he's still doing education. Um. Um, he's no longer doing products, but he's now he's big on the education side now. Mhm. So. So. Uh. That's a little bit about uh bike fitting. I guess, like the importance of bike fitting. Yeah, super important. And more importantly, the specifically the cleat wedges. Yep. And so we just as you said, we have the tag all your design software now. That you've been playing around with. Mhm. Um, and then we have the 3D printers that we're starting to utilize in our own manufacturing process, trying to figure that out. So we um decided to offer the cleat wedges as a supplemental component to our arsenal of stuff. We really wanted to use the software and the design capabilities here at the shop and it seemed like a really good uh fit and used for us. Yeah. For sure. And it really fixes a problem that's out there. I mean, it's a major issue. Um with all of these adapters and parts and and I think that custom. The the the pro custom adapter. really fits that well. Right. Um. But we have clients that are purchasing custom frames. Yep. So they should be able to walk out of the shop with the correct cleat adjustment so they can ride that frame. I think. For sure to ride to the fullest potential, which I believe is also some for which I have on the website. Yes, yes. Right, Predator. No. No, ride your potential. I don't remember what I wrote. I'm sure it was very clever. Um. So, we also use our 3D print tech for a lot of other crazy composite type of integration. Um. But all of that simulation and testing is pretty much in the exploration phase. Yeah. We're still. So. And the intermediate, we wanted to optimize the machines we do have and make them profitable. Yep. I wanted to make them profitable. I'm sure you did too. Yeah, no. And. Um, so we produced cool products like these adapters. Yeah, we have the adapters and we have the genius cage. Mhm. Um. And you know, the. You know. It's funny when we first started this, we didn't really think that we were going to do production. Um. Cleat adapters and we were just really thinking of doing the custom one. Um. But I think it spoke to fitters a lot and it spoke to a lot of racers pretty quickly. Um. And the question came up very quickly to, you know, you should make a stock one. Plus. Just in the manufacturing crazy COVID world we live in. Yeah. Just finding the supplies that existed already that came in from overseas. Yep. Just just not happening. So. Uh, we're not filling, you know, a new product into the world, we're just supplementing it with a nice US-based product. That. That it might be a little bit better. And also has more options. We have more options than anyone else. Um. Yeah. But so you wanted to quickly mention, um, in the history of Predator. Before. Way before me. Um. We, you always made custom geometry frames. Yes. Um, with the exception of two frames. Yes. There's only. Yes. So first your Beach Cruiser track frame. Yep. And then the current RF 20 road frame. So explain how bike fit correlates into your philosophy of when you did customized versus just these random. Yeah. I mean, like when we, I mean, first bike, we the inception of the first bike was back in 2000. So it's been 20 years. Um. And we made thousands of frames. And. We have now built our first, the RF 20 is the first production, is the first production style road frame we've ever built. Um. And so, you know, we were talking about doing this podcast, I was like, yeah, like bike fit has literally been part of us since the inception of Predator. Because we always had to custom fit every bike to every person. Um. With the RF 20, um, that changed a little bit. Because we offered as a custom version. But. Um, with with the adaptation of like bar systems and options that we have. Um. And the feedback we've gotten over the years that people wanted a stock size. Um. we were able to kind of build a geometry chart that could fit, you know, 80% of the the the riders out there. And um the people that need a custom setup, we still offer that as a service. So it's still there. Um but we were able to reduce the price of the RF 20 by a little bit by being able to uh make it off the shelf. Mhm. Um but yeah, so I mean, Predator has we've always been a fit first um company. I mean, we've always built ourselves on the philosophy of fitting a cyclist to a bike. Um not fitting the bike um not making them fit onto a size. So. Um yeah, I think it's super important to think about. Um and so it's not like we're something, it's not not something new for us. Fit is not something new. Um just cleat products are something new. Yeah, we're not reaching out a new type of product. We're just adding to our services. Yeah, and I think you'll see um as you see more product coming out from us over the next, you know, six months a year, I think you'll start seeing how everything connects. Um I think you'll see start seeing how those fitting the cleat products fit with the our whole ecosystem of products that are coming out now that we have all of our manufacturing platforms together. So, I think I think you'll start seeing that connection more. And then hopefully in a year or two, all of the physical products here that we're making go into the virtual world. That's a different podcast. That is a different podcast. Hopefully it doesn't take that long. Oh, hopefully, but you never know. Um, anything else before I do some things to mention? Wrapping it up? No. What about the cleat adapter? So the custom cleat adapters. Yes. If you find yourself wanting a custom size, you go on the website. You click uh Uh if you go to the top, there's a fit section and go to fitting products. And it is under there. Um and I've built a pretty fancy shmancy um custom builder, so you can specify right foot, left foot, and what cleat system you use and then angles and um leg and spacing. Yeah. So if you're pro. And if you need help, Yep. Give us a shout. Yeah, so if you're a pro and you're like, I need something custom. There it is. Yep. Um, cool. So things to mention. Um, we talked last week uh that you were trying to build a wholesale purchasing option on our website. Um for the bike fitting. For bike fitting. Yeah. For like you're a bike fitter and you want to have a stock of bike fitting components in your little. Yep, we've been getting that request quite a bit. So. So that's what you've been working on these past few days. Yep. Um, and I'm whipping up a general contract agreement and an OEM uh count uh contract for potential wholesale partners to fill out once you're accepted by us. So basically, if you're a bike fitter or bike shop, no online sales. Sorry. Well, online only. Yes. We're we're You can't retail sales. right? Yeah. So we're just only catch us is that we are not we if you are selling the product, you can sell it in person um in your stores or wherever. Right. Um but you can and you can sell on your own personal website, you just can't sell it on a third market. Right. Um website, so like Amazon, eBay. Right. Etsy, places like that. So, um we already sell on Amazon and we try and control that market space so that we can set the price and make sure that everything is genuine and real. Yeah. And we sell it online through our website, um or in person here in Tennessee. Yeah. So. So. So basically, if you're a bike fitter, bike shop, uh whatever, hop on there. Yeah. on the website real soon. Um. Um there'll be a an application button. Mhm. Um, you can answer the form about your business, your location, upload photos, your business license, resale certificates. Yeah. And once I deem you as legit. Yeah. Uh, we'll send you a contract to sign. Yeah.
EpisodeSep 23, 2021 · 26:24
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Project Breakaway with Predator Cycling
30: Custom Philosophies of Design & Bike Fit Integration for Our Pros, Ep. 30
In this episode of Project Breakaway, Predator Cycling explores its foundational philosophy of integrating custom design with precise bike fit. The hosts highlight how their individualized cleat adapters, like all their products, are crafted to optimize a rider's position for maximum power, efficiency, comfort, and injury prevention. Discover how tailored equipment ensures you work *with* your bike, not against it.
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